Wednesday, August 19, 2020

what will it take for people to go vegan?

 Well, that's the million-dollar question isn't it? And if the answer was an easy one, an awful lot more people would have gone vegan by now.

World wide credo

We also would have avoided the bickering between camps advocating different approaches. Abolitionists, incrementalists, welfarists/new welfarists, reductionists and utilitarians, whatever term you want to use; you can find a group that most closely matches your own philosophy or perspective. Mine, by the way, is one I termed pragmatic abolitionist about five years ago.

One of the many frustrating things for long-term vegans is the amount of time we've spent trying to achieve our goal, but with seemingly little to show for it. As one reader shared when I first starting writing again this year, I am bone-weary of trying to find new ways to say the same thing. It is frankly exhausting. Yes, yes it is. 

Vegans and animal rights activists have been saying the same things over and over and working for a long time in trying to bring about change. Here are a few of the tactics we've tried:

  • education
  • protests and demonstrations
  • undercover investigations
  • direct action
  • leading by example
  • changing laws and legislation
  • animal sanctuaries
  • introducing new vegan products
  • incremental steps like Meatless Mondays 
  • appeal to logic and rationality
  • appeal to emotion
  • media (books, blogs, documentaries, vegan characters in movies and TV, etc.)

Which ones have worked better than others? Hard to say. 

I view education as a cornerstone and vital part of reaching people, but remember reading that Vegan Outreach had distributed something like over a million pamphlets (don't remember the exact number) one year and thinking, but if you multiply that by the number of years you've been doing exactly that, shouldn't there be more vegans by now? How much more information do people need? Apparently, lots. So I don't want to denigrate that particular organization (indeed, I was a financial supporter for a long time) or any other as I realize that educational materials still have their place, but it's only one avenue of outreach.

Leading by example is crucial, I think, as the ripple effect of that can't be underestimated. Set a good example, and that may influence more people than any loud in-your-face exhortations to go vegan.

Two people, who I believe have probably contributed to more people changing their dietary habits than they may ever know, are Steve and Derek of HEEFS. They exemplify kindness in a way I never could, and if ever a couple found their right mission in life it would be them. Opening an animal sanctuary is a purpose they probably couldn't even have dreamt of in their prior lives, but seems like the magical fit that has changed multiple lives for the better.

And animal sanctuaries are a great way for people's minds and hearts to open unreservedly. Because if folk only think in terms of products on their plates without even connecting them to the animals they're derived from, than sanctuaries place those animals directly where they belong: in the center. In the center as individuals with personalities, a desire to live, and a wish to form bonds with others. I would think it'd be very difficult to interact with a cow or a pig or a chicken and then have their cousins for dinner a few hours later. At least, one would hope.

Vegan products? If I think of the range and accessibility in just the past 12 years, well, to say it's exploded is not much of an exaggeration. There was a time when your options for anything vegan was limited to either specialized health stores or huge grocery chains. Now even the most generic stores like Food Basics and No Frills carry a lot of plant-based items as well. That would have been unthinkable 12 years ago. 

But what I love about the ubiquitousness of vegan products is that it normalizes veganism. People may still not always react kindly to the word or idea, but they sure know what it means now. And while it's thought that some of the sales can be attributed to meat-eaters instead of vegans, so what? Isn't that what we actually want? Vegans are already part of the choir so to speak, and in my opinion, who eats vegan items is less important than that fewer animals are consumed.

I'm not going to go through every item on the list as I'm sure it's evident that each approach has its potential merits and downfalls. And because we don't know what will eventually turn a person vegan, having a multitude of ways, entry points, and even reasons will likely help turn more people vegan than just one approach.

Because the one answer that we do know for sure about what'll take for people to go vegan is that we just don't know.

We don't know what will be the societal tipping point. What environmental, economic, or health factor (or something that we haven't even thought of) will be the one thing that changes everything. Possibly in the future we'll be able to look back and say, there, that day, or that event, or that incident is what really got the ball rolling. In the meantime though, I think we just have to go with the approach that makes the most sense to us personally, and that gets us to stick with the mission. I'm also all for groups (like Faunalytics, for example) that can quantify for us what approaches do seem to bring about the best results.

In short, be wary of anyone who feels they have the answers, or worse, THE answer, when it comes to ending animal exploitation.

Note: still haven't read How To Create A Vegan World: A Pragmatic Approach by Tobias Leenaert. Wouldn't be surprised though if our perspectives greatly align, but will post before dipping into his book and come back to expand (if need be) after reading. 

Comments

Debra Roppolo said...

"I am bone-weary of trying to find new ways to say the same thing. It is frankly exhausting." God yes. I may even have been the one who said it; I don't remember.
I need to read Tobias Leenaert's book too. Thanks for finding the energy to write this post.

have gone vegan said in reply to Debra Roppolo...

Haha, that WAS you. Thanks for reading. Always appreciated! :)

Kymberlie said...

This is Typepad Support testing your comments. Please feel free to delete this.

Krissa said...

I am so sorry to be so far behind! The reason is something I could copy/paste...living situation. The weather is actually what knocked me down for the count lately.

Thanks for mentioning Esther's family. They are hands down the best ambassadors for veganism (Esther Approved) for more reasons than I can count.

You became vegan before I did. I held on to eggs until I realized that no farmed animal is having a nice life - thank you for keeping my cow friend on your page...she is one of the victims of "happy, bio farming".

I no longer have an idea about how to help others become vegan. The one thing I know is that presenting our fellow beings who suffer through any of the countless things we humans do to them as individuals is absolutely necessary.

I'm afraid that our brothers and sisters are going to be left behind because it's easy to do that in the current climate. You are an amazing voice and speak so much more eloquently than I can. I appreciate you and Steve, Derek, Esther and all the rest of you who advocate so much more than I do.

I know that all "ism's" are wrong (at least the ones I can think of when asked what are ism's)...Speciesism is by far the worst and the most vulgar. Thank you for what you are doing to fight against it.

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Hey kiddo, I hear ya about living situation, and you guys had another heatwave? Yikes. Another thing we can thank humans for, although climate-change deniers (many of whom may be anti-maskers to boot) will undoubtedly deny human responsibility too. What a world...

It's hard trying to change it, and people's minds, so sometimes all we can do is bear witness and say out loud that we don't agree with what is going on. Not that that may help, but it's the least we can do.

I agree that the HEEFS gang do more for veganism and animal rights than they probably realize, and in such a positive way too.

Your cow friend will always be on the page. She exemplifies one of my favourite mantras right now: Someone, not something.

Try to stay cool! :)

have gone vegan said in reply to have gone vegan...

p.s. Typepad Support was testing my comments, because for some odd reason the Chrome browser doesn't recognize me when I reply to comments and throws them in the spam folder. Even when I sign in it says, nope, don't know you. So glad other people can at least comment without issue! Right now I either have to publish from spam folder or use Internet Explorer if I want to be recognized. Ah well, bigger problems in the world, eh? ;)

Tuesday, August 11, 2020

whose lives matter continued: part B

 Hello! If you haven't read part A yet, feel free to do so now. More importantly, if you haven't read the original whose lives matter? then you'd better do so tout suite!

In that post I was trying to convey why saying All Lives Matter (abbr. to ALM from now on) in response to Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a problem. And while I believe ALM may be said in different ways by vegans (as in, all animal lives matter too) and non-vegans (as in, non-black lives, but mainly white lives), it's still problematic regardless of who says it.

To restate, BLM doesn't mean that only black lives matter, but that their lives matter too, and that all lives CAN'T matter until black ones actually do. And while some may suggest that black lives already matter, systemic racism says otherwise. People denying that systemic racism exists clearly say otherwise too. 

BLM is a movement that has gained traction for a reason. While the need for it has existed for what probably seems forever, enough people are standing up now and saying enough is enough, and their voices can no longer be ignored.

I cited a couple of examples of other campaigns where the message is not given the same type of pushback, and the fact that they don't indicates the stronghold that white supremacy and racism has. I also talked about the existence of systemic racism here in Canada as well, and provided links to books and actions for allies.

A few more examples of why saying ALM is not appropriate include a house, a pool, and a birthday. From my reply to a comment: The analogy that I've often seen used to explain why saying ALM isn't appropriate is the 'house on fire' one. Basically, if one house in a neighbourhood is on fire, it is appropriate to focus all attention on trying to put out that particular fire, and not worry about the other houses. One could argue that All Houses Matter, but in this instance the house on fire gets priority. Another analogy I've seen is the lifeguard one. If a person is drowning, then that person gets helped, not everyone else in the pool.

The birthday one I just mentioned goes something like this: if you're at a party wishing someone Happy Birthday, it doesn't mean that no one else has birthdays or that those birthdays aren't equally important, it's just that they're not being celebrated or focused upon that particular day.

I provided a few links to other articles that explain this better than I could, and am quoting from the first link here:

When someone counters “Black Lives Matter” with “All Lives Matter,” it’s appropriate to use the metaphor of a neighborhood: if someone’s house is on fire, while others are not, whose house is the priority? Similarly, choosing to insist that “All Lives Matter,” including those of non-human animals, is not technically wrong, but still distracts from and diffuses the potential impacts of an important and necessary racial justice movement.

The author of Stop Comparing Black Lives Matter to Animal Rights makes the powerful argument that non-black vegans should NEVER make that comparison:

Why? The reasons why are multiple, but let me start with the most basic: You already enjoy the opportunities and privileges that Black people are fighting for.

They end with saying:

Please, vegans with privilege, I’m asking you to join me: Show up and fight racism without equivocation, suppress that impulse to compare the plight of non-human animals to the plight of your fellow humans, see that society’s compassion will never extend to animals before it extends to all humans, and recognize your privilege as a non-Black vegan to fight for animal rights without having to also fight for your own rights.

One more link includes 9 different explanations as to why we should stop saying ALM, which means that something should resonate with everyone, hopefully.

As I mentioned in part A:

Right now the world is also more fully waking up to the reality that racism plays a role in every institution and layer of society (systemic racism), and while some vegans may continue to not want to deal with that, may continue to insist that our movement should only focus on nonhumans, a veganism without intersectionality at its core is like a feminism that doesn't want to include all women in its fight for equality.

...Which is why as vegans, we have to fight for the most marginalized of ALL groups, including both animals and humans. Fighting against speciesism is important, but without paying attention to other interlinked forms of oppression, veganism misses the mark.

One last thing. I would suggest that vegans saying ALM is even more tone deaf than when non-vegans do, in part because of the importance of intersectionality, but also because of the very history of black people being compared to animals themselves.

As a white person who doesn't suffer from systemic racism but likely benefits from and upholds it, I'm clearly not the one with any authority on the subject matter. But if I'm going to try and be an ally, and put forth the notion that vegans have to be allies if veganism is important to them, then all I can do is learn as much as possible and do the best that I can.

And if I can offer up one piece of one-word advice (before I shut up) that everyone (myself included) really could do much more of, it's this:

LISTEN

Comments

Krissa said...

Not all human lives matter the way that word is being used. Humans lord over every other species. It is all intertwined.

My black friends approve what I wrote there. We've discussed it.

Thank you so much for being an advocate for what is right! You are speaking to more people with this blog than you will ever know. The problem is complex and the answer won't be simple.

Krissa said...

My comment above wasn't supposed to sound the way I think it reads.

This is a complex problem and there is no good solution! Everyone I know agrees on that.

Thank you for being a voice for those who need a voice, any and all!

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

I agree, those who tend to say All Lives Matter don't usually really mean ALL human lives, but certain human lives. At least, if actions indicate values more than words do.

Yep, not a simple problem, thus no simple solutions either...

Not sure how many people this blog actually reaches, but I'll keep talking for as long as I can. ;)


Wednesday, August 5, 2020

whose lives matter continued: part A

 This is a follow-up to whose lives matter? as I thought a few links that I included in reply to a comment would be helpful in a post as well. (Note: I rambled on too long, so those links will be included in part B.)

But first I want to say a few things. I've been vegan for a long time now (twelve years), and I'm sure I'm not the vegan I was when I first started this journey, just as I'm no longer exactly the same person in general. And while I believe my core values haven't changed, I wouldn't be surprised that if I looked at my posts beginning from 2008, I could find a few things that would make me cringe today. And that's because nothing is static. You change as you grow, and your viewpoints and philosophies refine themselves as you incorporate new information. That's a good thing, both personally and for whatever cause grabs your heartstrings the most.

So I would say the biggest change is likely the realization that the problem which requires veganism as a fix isn't simple, therefore the solutions won't be either. Platitudes, easy sound bites, and single-pronged solutions aren't the answer; otherwise the world would have become vegan a long time ago already. I'm more comfortable now with realizing that the solutions by necessity will be multi-pronged, have a variety of elements that some would describe as welfarist/new welfarist, abolitionist, intersectional, etc.

It could also be that change will come about quicker because of market forces, consumer innovations, environmental or economic necessity, and I'm okay with that. If more animals end up staying alive because of something like cultured lab-meat, for example, than a massive change in people's moral perspective, well, I'm okay with that too. 

Another thing I've come to realize more fully is that vegans, because they're human, are complicated. Being vegan doesn't automatically make you a better or nicer or more compassionate person. There are likely as many assholes among vegans as there are in the general population, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. Infighting shouldn't come as a huge shock either. No matter how noble a social justice movement may be, it's still comprised of imperfect humans with internalized prejudices.

Most vegans are driven by a sense of compassion, sure (well, one would hope), but that doesn't mean that racism, sexism, ableism, classism, homophobia, transphobia, and on and on and on, hasn't affected the movement. Just as the world grappled at large with the notion that rampant abuse of power leading to sexual harassment and assault is more of a norm than an exception, stories of sexism within the animal rights movement were front and centre at the same time.

Right now the world is also more fully waking up to the reality that racism plays a role in every institution and layer of society (systemic racism), and while some vegans may continue to not want to deal with that, may continue to insist that our movement should only focus on nonhumans, a veganism without intersectionality at its core is like a feminism that doesn't want to include all women in its fight for equality.

And that realization (the importance of intersectionality) has probably been the biggest shift in my own approach to veganism over the years. Because at heart, the ending of oppression is what veganism is all about. Which is why as vegans, we have to fight for the most marginalized of ALL groups, including both animals and humans. Fighting against speciesism is important, but without paying attention to other interlinked forms of oppression, veganism misses the mark.

As I said, I've said too much, snort, so will continue this discussion and links in part B.

Stay tuned.

Comments

Krissa said...

You became vegan before I did and you are someone I absolutely respect because I know you. You have integrity and are an honest person.

Something I know for sure from this post is "There are likely as many assholes among vegans as there are in the general population"... Yes, there are.

You have done an actually amazing job of writing down an intertwining of the prevailing social problems and how they relate to being vegan.

Sorry, I just realized this is reading more as a powerpoint presentation than as a comment.

I know that the problems in society are linked to what happens to non-humans. I (dang, I don't want to write this,but at the same time it's how I feel), just feel like human beings are never going to behave correctly on several levels and that "animals" are going to rapidly get lost in a shuffle.

No human should be judged on anything other than their behavior. Sadly, that is about as likely to happen as folks becoming vegan.

Your post isn't as hopeless as my comment is and I'm sorry for that. Thanks for speaking up for those who can't!

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Oh, no apology needed, there are times when I feel pretty hopeless myself. Humans can't even behave decently towards each other (yours truly included, sometimes), so wanting them to behave decently to other animals they don't even feel they need to respect may be asking too much.

I sometimes think that any change benefitting other animals will only happen when humans don't have a choice. When, for example, some environmental catastrophe forces consumption habits to change.

On darker days I even think that if the human race were to go extinct because of their self-serving behavior, well, it would serve them right. I'm not a naturally positive person, haha, and being vegan just amplifies that, but I try not to have that deter my efforts completely, snort.

All we can do is keep trying...

Sunday, June 7, 2020

whose lives matter?

 Black Lives Matter.

And it's about time that Black Lives Matter has finally gotten the international support and solidarity it deserves. It also goes to show what can happen when the possibility of real change (and fear of what will continue to happen if the status quo doesn't change) galvanizes people into action. 

So what about All Lives Matter? Because from a vegan perspective, the idea that all lives matter (including other animals, specifically) seems to be reasonable and almost self-evident. And that notion IS what drives many vegan activists, this belief that all lives are worthy. Or to borrow from this quote:

The idea that some lives matter less is the root of all that is wrong with the world. --Paul Farmer

But we have to remember context here as the rallying cry of All Lives Matter has been used too often to dismiss the BLM message. A message often misunderstood. Black Lives Matter does not mean that ONLY black lives matter, but that black lives matter TOO. And that if black lives don't matter (with systemic racism suggesting they don't), all lives can't matter.

But for some reason this has confused people in a way that other campaigns have not. For example, those who fundraise for breast cancer won't get the pushback that they're ignoring other types of cancer. It's implied that all cancers are worthy of being eradicated, but that the particular focus here is a specific form of cancer. Same for other diseases. Campaigning for Diabetes, for example, doesn't mean Alzheimer's matters less.

So I was impressed to see Steve Jenkins from Happily Ever Esther Farm Sanctuary thank the person who helped him understand why using the AllLives instead of the BlackLivesMatter hashtag was problematic, and state that he was willing to learn in order to be the best ally. Sadly though, I think a number of his followers didn't get that particular point of his post.

It takes humility to admit you may have been wrong, and strength of character to be open to growth. And isn't that what vegans hope nonvegans will do? Take information that may be new to them and consider it with an open mind? While I understand his followers defending him (because yes, Steve has a heart of gold and we see his values exemplified daily), it's a bit disheartening to see some followers continue to insist that saying All Lives Matter is absolutely fine, when actually, it isn't.

Also disheartening is that Canadians have been a bit ignorant (smug, even) in denying racism in our own backyard, as evidenced by Ontario premier Rob Ford declaring on June 2nd that Canada doesn't have the same systemic deep roots of racism that the United States does. Um, right. Thankfully he quickly backtracked on that comment after receiving massive criticism. 

But the belief in the absence of racism in Canada is something many Canadians share. And I can even see how they may have that perception. Take the small town I live in; so incredibly white it's rare to see someone in it who isn't. You almost couldn't even blame anyone here for not knowing what white privilege is, and that almost everyone in this town benefits from it. That is, of course, if you conveniently forget the historic (and current) treatment of Indigenous people. Or the internment of Japanese Canadians back in 1942. No, racism is definitely NOT absent in this country.

What does systemic racism in Canada look like? Here are five charts illustrating the challenges Black Canadians face in terms of income, employment, education, and hate crimes. Contrary to the claim that systemic racism doesn't exist in Canada, Black Canadians say racism is just as harmful on this side of the border.

Want to be an ally in the anti-racism fight? Here are some actions you can take to help in the fight against racism.

Two books I have read recently that personally have helped me to better understand the topic of race are: So You Want to Talk About Race by American author Ijeoma Oluo, and Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race by UK author Reni Eddo-Lodge.  I highly recommend both.

The takeaway for vegans in particular, I think, is that we have to be willing to listen and learn. Just as the feminist movement was rightly criticized for being mainly relevant to white middle-class women, vegans have to listen when we're told that veganism is mainly relevant to white middle-class folk. (Did you hear the echo?) We have to listen, respectfully, when we're told comparisons between the animal rights movement and the civil rights movement may be problematic. We also have to pay attention when survivors of sexual assault tell us that having their experience of rape compared to artificial insemination of animals may be inappropriate.

We have to remember that the ultimate aim of veganism is to eliminate oppression, period. That includes racism, sexism, classism, ableism and a bunch of other isms too. While it may be tempting to say that you only care about animals, humans ARE animals, and we have to help end oppression of them as well.

And one way of doing that is to honour the fight for racial equality by not routinely saying all lives matter whenever you hear Black Lives Matter.

Comments

Debra Roppolo said...

Very well said.

have gone vegan said in reply to Debra Roppolo...

Thanks Debra! :)

Krissa said...

I missed a LOT of posts so I went back to the earliest one I missed and I'm trying to think of how to reply to this one because I do think you made great and valid points - and maybe it's because I'm a misanthrope that I feel the way I do (I dislike all humans equally based on only their behavior, not their color or religion or anything else other than personal behavior, which leaves me disliking more folks than not), but this topic you posted reminds me about when Morrissey got flamed so much online when he wrote about farmed animals and compared them to holocaust victims. He is 100% correct about that and I appreciate that there are vegans who are trying to understand why some black folks might not understand the All Lives Matter slogan, but they need to understand that slogan as much as any human being who isn't black needs to understand the Black Lives Matter slogan.

No human being no matter what color they are has a worse life than the non-human animals we have all enslaved, exploited, tortured and abused since we all started coexisting on this planet.

I know that racism and sexism share many common traits with speciesism and that all of those isms are wrong and need to be eradicated. I just feel like now more than ever, our fellow beings are more in danger because of so many things going on in this world.

There was a time in my life - and I didn't realize this until recently when I was talking with my brothers - when all the friends I had that I spent time with were gay black men. I didn't even think about it at the time, they were (and some still are) my friends and I didn't see the demographics of that. I know the struggles some of them went through that are more than a lot of the rest of us can even understand. And at the same time, they are at the top of the pyramid simply for being human.

So for me personally, All Lives Matter is something that every human being needs to make an effort to understand and it's a little scary and sad to me that folks who have been mistreated so much by other humans don't have more understanding and empathy with other creatures than the rest of us do. Maybe Native Americans, but even though they aren't vegan culturally/historically...they at least recognized and showed respect that they were killing another life when they killed other animals.

I'm so sorry if this comment came off in a way I didn't intend. I absolutely know that everything you wrote is valid and is the way the whole thing has to be approached. I'm just sorry for our fellow beings that humans are so ridiculous that it's even an issue for anyone to say All Lives Matter at any point in history, now or before now or later. But yes...the road to finally making things better for other animals is tied to our species - and we clearly can't get things right even between ourselves.

Thanks for posting again! I'm sorry I'm so far behind and I don't know how quickly I can catch up, but thanks for speaking up for those who need a voice now more than ever!

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Hi Krissa, so I'm trying to think of how to reply to this comment (just as you were trying to think of how to reply to this post), and I want to begin by saying to others who may be reading that Krissa happens to be a friend of mine, so I absolutely know her heart to be in the right place.

I'm also going to put up a few links at the bottom of this comment that explains this issue better than I could, and may even put them up in a separate post as well, as I think I know how it may be confusing to vegans (who I believe use the slogan All Lives Matter in a different way than non-vegans) as to why continuing to use this slogan at this particular point in time is problematic.

So first, vegans using ALM (I'm going to use the abbreviated version from now on) typically think of other animals when saying 'all lives', whereas I don't think non-vegans do. In essence then, saying ALM serves to dismiss or cancel out Black Lives Matter. And while some vegans may be more intersectional in their approach, too many aren't, and sadly (and incorrectly) feel that animal rights activism shouldn't include concern for human rights at all.

The analogy that I've often seen used to explain why saying ALM isn't appropriate is the 'house on fire' one. Basically, if one house in a neighbourhood is on fire, it is appropriate to focus all attention on trying to put out that particular fire, and not worry about the other houses. One could argue that All Houses Matter, but in this instance the house on fire gets priority. Another analogy I've seen is the lifeguard one. If a person is drowning, then that person gets helped, not everyone else in the pool.

So to quote from the first article linked at bottom: "When someone counters “Black Lives Matter” with “All Lives Matter,” it’s appropriate to use the metaphor of a neighborhood: if someone’s house is on fire, while others are not, whose house is the priority? Similarly, choosing to insist that “All Lives Matter,” including those of non-human animals, is not technically wrong, but still distracts from and diffuses the potential impacts of an important and necessary racial justice movement."

In the second link at the bottom, the author of Stop Comparing Black Lives Matter to Animal Rights, makes the powerful argument that non-black vegans should NEVER make that comparison, saying: "Why? The reasons why are multiple, but let me start with the most basic: You already enjoy the opportunities and privileges that Black people are fighting for."

They end with, "Please, vegans with privilege, I’m asking you to join me: Show up and fight racism without equivocation, suppress that impulse to compare the plight of non-human animals to the plight of your fellow humans, see that society’s compassion will never extend to animals before it extends to all humans, and recognize your privilege as a non-Black vegan to fight for animal rights without having to also fight for your own rights."

The third link includes 9 different explanations as to why we should stop saying ALM, which means that something should resonate with everyone, hopefully.

Krissa, I think you nailed it on the head when you said, "...the road to finally making things better for other animals is tied to our species - and we clearly can't get things right even between ourselves", and I think that points out the importance of tackling racism. Doesn't mean that we as white vegans don't tackle speciesism as well, but that we do understand the need for those who aren't as privileged to prioritize differently.

link 1) https://sentientmedia.org/protesters-pigs-the-diversity-problem-in-animal-welfare/

link 2) https://medium.com/tenderlymag/stop-comparing-black-lives-matter-to-animal-rights-59a640d741f1

link 3) https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter

Krissa said...

Thanks for your reply and I hope/wonder if it can be a post of its own (?).

I've been getting madder and madder and madder watching humans who I know in my personal life who don't care about "others" (whether that be a different race or different species) speak up about things that they are simply mimickng to try to jump on a bandwagon.


Your reply deserves a better reply than I'm writing here, but I am too emotional about all this to write something intelligent. That is one of the reasons that I thank you again for being the voice for those who can not speak for themselves because of who they are.

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Hi Krissa! Thanks for checking back in again and glad you were able to see the comment. Yes, I'm working on making it into a separate post, which will now end up being two posts as I had a bunch of pre-post things to say as well. In other words, too many words, snort.

(And I was inspired to start another post as well. Not sure where this impulse to write - after being silent for over a year - comes from, but I guess I have to honour it.)

Yeah, I know how frustrating it can be to watch folk simply say slogans without having their heart in it. Worse though is those who completely refute not only the words but the ideas as well. I really think we're at a critical juncture and if we as a species can't get our shit together when it comes to racism and sexism for starters, then we're in even more trouble than we realize.

I'm hoping my follow-up posts will explain things a bit further in depth (you can only say so much in a comment), and help show why the BLM movement is so critical to the work that vegans as allies have to do.

Thanks, as always, for your comments. I know we don't always agree on every point, but diversity of opinion makes every movement and every friendship richer, methinks. Hugs to you!

Krissa said...

Hi again.. sorry we're about to make a whole thread here, but maybe it's not even that bad in the event that there are lurkers. First, I really hope you have the time to make a follow-up post to this and also to make other posts.

Something I thought of as regards our like-mindedness and also sometimes not seeing things the same is that we live in places that are sooooo different. When I was in the States, I lived all over the place and what I consider home (Pendleton, IN) is probably close to what you go through. You know I lived in NYC, L.A., etc. but anyway...

Before I lived in Berlin, I would not have seen so many things that I see on a daily basis and I think that is making me even more firm in my beliefs/opinions that you and I maybe don't agree on. It sounds 'simple', but I think that might be it. If not, and if this is just me without any outside influence...that's fine, too. But there are things I see every day and experience every day that are so far past what I was used to (and not in a good way) and I think it has made me become even more close to our non-human family than I already was.

Your voice and insight are needed now more than ever for our fellow beings. And I understand that if we can't get it right among ourselves, that's not helpful for anything and dangerous in ways that affect our non-human family (we see things on the news here every day that make that clear). Just keep speaking up as often and as loud as you can for those who don't have a voice. You already do that, I know. 💛👍🌎 Thank you!!!

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Hey kiddo, just put up follow-up post part A now, with hopefully part B to follow in the next couple of days. Maybe we can continue the discussion over there?

p.s. I once heard or read something along this line in response to the idea that animals don't have a voice: they do, but humans just don't listen. That has always stuck with me. :)

Emm said...

George Floyd's sister says 'all lives matter'. And they do, including animal's lives. A fire department would put out whichever house was on fire because All Fires Matter. A lifeguard would rescue whichever swimmer was drowning because, All drowning swimmers matter. All lives matter helps whichever race is in need of help. It is inclusive. Yes of course black lives matter - all lives matter. The racial response to black lives matter is white lives matter and not all lives matter.

Have GoneVegan said in reply to Emm...

Thanks for commenting. May I respectfully suggest that you read the follow-up posts below (part A, and especially, part B) before we continue this dialogue? Thank you.

https://www.havegonevegan.com/2020/08/whose-lives-matter-continued-black-lives-matter.html

https://www.havegonevegan.com/2020/08/whose-lives-matter-continued-part-b-.html

This link is also helpful: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter