Tuesday, August 26, 2014

why don't we have a term for hating animals?

 Actually, we do, but it's so little known (I only ran across it myself a while ago) that it hardly even registers in Google search. Try looking for its cousins, and you'll find misogyny (hatred or dislike of women) coming back with a scary 1,640,000 results, misandry (hatred or dislike of men) clocking in at 1,100,000 results, and the more equal-opportunity term misanthropy (something I definitely fall prey to on occasion) yielding 542,000 results. But misothery?  A paltry 1,780 results is all you'll get. 

A shame, really, since the term itself (coined by Jim Mason in 1993) contains the resulting misery for animals right within its letters. I like this term, I really do. And it reminds me of the dangers when we don't have proper names for things so commonplace, so underlying just about everything, and yet so silent. Remember the world-changing effect when Betty Friedan described the problem that has no name? Naming is powerful, necessary, and exciting too.

The word misothery may have an awful ring to it, but I'm glad I found it, and will be adding it to my arsenal of tools to fight animal and human exploitation. Because these two types of exploitation are linked, with the one enabling and the other perhaps begetting, but definitely reinforcing. And who knows, maybe one day, certain acts of animal use and abuse will be seen more widely for what they really are: hate crimes based on species.

p.s. if you agree that this term is a damn fine one, and deserves a wider audience, please help pass it on :) 

Comments

veganelder said...

His book titled The Way We Eat, co-authored with Peter Singer, was one of the first books I read when I went vegan. It was one of the few books my local library had that addressed the how we treated animals.

Misothery...a good catch.

I find it scary that hatred of women gets 500k more hits than hatred of men...and even more scary that hatred of humans only gets a paltry half a million hits.

Maybe we do have a name for animal-hater, however it's not overtly used that way although in practice that's exactly what it is. Meat-eater (or carnivore for those who think it makes them sound tough) or follower of the Standard American Diet...these human animals are animal haters in what they do. Instead we can now call them misotherists. :-)

Thanks for the new term.

have gone vegan said in reply to veganelder...

Would you believe that I just discovered today (I know, I'm awfully late in replying!) that our library no longer carries Peter Singer's Animal Liberation? I was dumbfounded, and worried too, since other animal rights titles that I seem to remember seeing just a couple of years ago are no longer there either. :(

I was surprised as well that misanthropy got substantially fewer results (maybe misanthropist gets more?), since it certainly gets used more often than misandry. And frankly, there are days when it feels like misanthropy is a perfectly logical, rational and emotionally appropriate response to what's happening out there.

Your term carnivore reminded me of how the other day a clerk at the grocery store who knows I'm vegan asked me if I also use the term "carnist" to describe meat-eaters, and I replied that depending on my mood, I certainly do, snort. She and I are friendly acquaintances so she didn't take it to heart, but I was a bit amused by her finding the term itself offensive but NOT the actions that the word describes.

Krissa said...

"it reminds me of the dangers when we don't have proper names for things so commonplace, so underlying just about everything, and yet so silent." ... this was very powerful when I read it and I had thoughts immediately of comments I was going to make until I read the next sentence. And I have to admit, I felt a bit bad that I didn't know anything about Betty Frieden. So I read the link you provided and did some thinking about that, too. As long as women have a choice as to whether or not they are going to be wives, mothers and/or work outside the home, then I think things are ok. It's only if there's not a choice other than to be at home taking care of kids that it's not ok - and I won't point out which cultures in the world are still like this today. But I have a feeling that the sheer fact that it was so expected of a woman back then to aspire to nothing else that that's why so many women were feeling what Betty Frieden wrote about. I'll tell ya what, if we didn't have financial woes from my not being able to work outside the home full-time, I would have no problem whatsoever being a "housewife" (for lack of a better word). I've had so many jobs and the only one I didn't hate was my volunteer job at the shelter. Work to keep a home up and running is hard work and deserving of respect. As I mentioned and I'm sure we can all agree, it's only when it's compulsory that it's a problem.

Now I went on way too long about that part of the post. The term Misothery is new to me, too. But it's a topic I've been thinking on a bit lately in a way. I'll skip some details to keep this to the point, but I've seen so many examples that show how naturally drawn to and caring for other animals that human babies and small children are. It's SICKENING that the natural instinct of our own species to live in peace and harmony with other creatures is squashed for most of us before we get out of childhood. I know that kids in North America are not innocent of this kind of thing entirely, but by about age 8, here in Germany, is when I notice the cut off that children begin to be total ___holes to other animals. That's what Nick remember from his childhood as well. It's pretty common here not just with Germans, but with the large Turkish and other cultures living here. Instead of wondering why this is that we do this to our kids and how it came to be over the centuries, I will just focus on what we can possibly do to change it. Up until now, I've really let kids have it when I see them hitting defenseless little creatures here, teasing and tormenting dogs, etc. I am going to try with all my might next time to talk to them calmly and try to explain to them why what they are doing isn't ok. They're learning their bad behavior at home and from friends and so the influence of an auslander might not be long-lasting or far-reaching, but I can talk easily with children here so I'll give that a try.

Another long rambling comment from me!!! :) Snort! And that wasn't even all I had to say, but I think it's enough. Thanks for another thought-provoking post. :)

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Language is fascinating, as the words we use not only describe but shape the very experience we are trying to articulate. That's why I find the expression "they're only words" frustrating, cuz they're not. Sorry, George Carlin, but you're wrong, snort.

But don't feel bad about not recognizing the name Betty Friedan. I'm of an age where the women's movement made a profound impact as I was growing up, but like everything else, it goes in cycles. As you said, choice is key, and there are a number of younger women today opting to stay home with kids because they saw first-hand with mothers who worked both in and out of the home (stay-at-home dads will be the first to tell you that what they do IS work) that it's really difficult to be and do everything all at the same time.

Yes, I do think kids in general have a more natural empathy, that unfortunately, often gets indoctrinated right out of them. So you giving them a different perspective is helpful I think. Even if they don't accept it, they may remember it later when they're older, or at least will get to know that not every adult condones animal harm. And if you're good with kids anyway, why not? :)

Bea Elliott said...

You wrote "hate crimes based on species" and this fits accurately into the results of misothery. I love this word/idea! Lots to ponder! Thanks for this post!

have gone vegan said in reply to Bea Elliott...

You're welcome. And thanks. :)

Krissa said...

Just found out about this group: http://www.seashepherd.org/cove-guardians
yesterday. It reminded me of your Captivity is Cruel t-shirt. .. The site has a lot on it that is very emotional, but it's also good to know there are people out there trying to help.

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Thanks for the link Krissa, I'll check it out. :)

Hi, Misery for animals! That just about sums it up. Thanks for highlighting it.
Anne

Matthew K. Smith said...

so what is a person suffering from misothery, (like my landlord who has a no pets rule and forced me to put my beloved cat in foster care via PAWS)?
a misotherp? now that has a great ring to it! sounds like twerp!
(and i will develop misandry toward him as long as i live here. anus.)

have gone vegan said in reply to Matthew K. Smith...

Hey Matthew, thanks for stopping by, and sorry for the late reply.

Misotherp -- ha ha, love it! As for your landlord, is what he did legal? Here in Ontario Canada, a landlord cannot evict a tenant for having a pet (even if there's a "no pets" clause in a rental agreement), unless the pet is causing damage or is considered inherently dangerous. They can also not force you to get rid of any pet, but I don't know if the legal situation is different where you live. But yeah, he sounds like a real misotherp all right. Sorry you have to put up with him!

Thursday, April 10, 2014

so what does not shaving have to do with veganism?

 Well, back in my I-wish-I-were-a-hippie days (late 80s if I remember correctly), I often wore cotton skirts way below my knees but not quite long enough to hide my hairy legs, and while I wasn't surprised by people being surprised, I was taken aback by the amount of anger it generated. The hair on my legs not only grossed some people out, it really upset them. And while it never bothered anyone that I was in a personal relationship with, I can't tell you the number of strangers (men, women, of all ages) who would approach me and angrily demand to know why I didn't shave. My legs were a personal affront to them, and they sure let me know it. Although it was annoying at the time (and I soon gave up skirts altogether), I was also quite fascinated by the response and tried to figure out what was going on. 

What I had done, of course, was breach public convention and upset the status quo. I had tampered with the notion of what a woman's body should look like and how she should present herself. In short, I had made people uncomfortable. It gave me a taste though of what it might be like to be pregnant and have strangers make remarks about something that is none of their business, or what it would be like to have a visible disability. But while folk don't usually get mad at expectant mothers or people in wheelchairs, choosing to flaunt convention sometimes made me feel I should get ready for a public flogging.

But what specifically does this have to do with veganism? Well, as you already know, daring to be different comes with a price. Seeing someone who doesn't look or eat the way you expect others to look and eat can be upsetting. And if something as innocuous and impersonal as a woman not shaving can send someone right out of their comfort zone (and forget their manners), then you can imagine how charged a topic food can be. While someone can easily dismiss a hairy faux pas, tee hee (after all, if every decent woman knows enough to shave then I don't have to think of this as an issue), eating is a bit too close to home. Most omnivores probably don't think too much about food beyond financial and health implications, and likely rarely consider that there may be political, environmental and animal-welfare consequences of their food choices until they encounter vegans. Seeing or hearing about someone who eats very differently but who belongs to a similar group can be jarring, especially if they do so because they don't want to consume animals. Because what does that imply or say about your own food choices? Not as easy to dismiss anymore.

And remember the popular slogan of the women's movement the personal is political? It was and still is, but the culinary is political too, and perhaps even more so.

===============================

In many ways, femininity really is a social construction. Men, for the most part, are thought of as male without having to do too much extra. Get up, get dressed, get out the door, and you're not likely to be accused of not being masculine enough. Women on the other hand are required to take additional, and I would argue artificial, steps before showing up in public. Remove all body hair except for what grows on your head. Sorry, but if it wasn't natural for hair to grow in certain places, it wouldn't grow there. Head hair needs inordinate amounts of attention to be considered presentable: washed, dried, styled, gelled, sprayed, coloured, tinted, trimmed, and if female, not cut too short. But you're not done yet. Jewelry, accessories, shoes and clothes need to be picked out carefully. Ever notice how fashion shows and magazines are obsessed with women's clothes being feminine enough? But when was the last time you heard men's shirts being referred to as masculine, or that "masculinity" is the trend for this season? And staying away from the topic of cosmetic surgery to "improve" women (a whole post unto itself), what is natural about putting man-made colour onto nails, cheeks, lips and eyelids in order to be thought of as suitably feminine?

Now I'm not arguing here that women shouldn't shave, or pay attention to their hair, or wear makeup, but to just be aware that these are artificial constraints. And that what is considered feminine has been commodified, because sadly, appearance is still viewed as one of the most important aspects of being a woman. When was the last time you saw a female newscaster who wasn't attractive? Who wasn't wearing makeup? Just saying. 

Gosh, haven't had a feminist rant like this in a long time. I feel quite refreshed, snort. Thanks for listening. ;)

You are beautiful

Comments

Joanna said...

Thanks for this terrific, insightful and validating post! I`m so glad I discovered you a few weeks ago (can`t even remember what I was reading that had a link to your blog).

have gone vegan said in reply to Joanna...

Hi Joanna, thank you so much for the compliment, and welcome to the blog! Everyone here is very friendly (even when we disagree), so pop back in any time you like. And thanks again. :)

veganelder said...

Good for you! Oppression is an equal opportunity screwer-over of the less powerful. Opting out of oppressive/oppressed behaviors is always discomfiting to those who continue to participate.

In one scene George C. Scott's character (in that exquisite movie The Hospital) shouted out the window: "Power to the Impotent". I second that.

Or maybe we should begin viewing power like radioactivity. A very small amount might be ok but once it exceeds a certain level...the dangers pretty much seem to outweigh any possible positives. But...we seem to have a real real hard time figuring that out.

have gone vegan said in reply to veganelder...

Yeah, power does funny things to people. Even, sadly, in social justice movements. It may be a cliché, but I do think power corrupts, although fear of losing power may be even more corruptive.

Haven't seen that movie you mentioned. Will check it out.

Odd, too, how difficult it is to see the oppressiveness of certain behaviours, especially when you're still immersed in them. The human animal is pretty blind, eh?

krissa said...

Where to begin... (insert smiley here). ... First I am going to say, I can not BELIEVE people had the nerve to come up to you and say anything about you not shaving your legs! That is truly unheard of in my world so I guess I was lucky. My teenage years were spent in Arkansas and a lot of my black girlfriends didn't shave and while it was noticed, nothing was made of it. A lot of my white girlfriends weren't allowed to shave until they were like 16. Regardless, even after I moved up to the Midwest, I saw women from time to time who didn't shave and no one ever accosted them for it. I'm sure there were nasty remarks made, but not to their face. I am really stunned that people had the audacity to approach you like that. I'm sorry you went through it.

I thought this post was going to be about Gillette (never ever buy any product by Gillette due to 'animal' testing) and other companies whose names I can't think of right now, but instead you really 'brought it' with so much to think about and such excellent observations...I hardly know where to begin. And I don't want to ramble, but I'm sure I will.

The older I've gotten, the less and less the hair on my legs grows to the point that I rarely have to shave. I do because I don't like the feel of it, but I have almost no hair now so it's good. I only buy razors from a couple store brands here who have vegan soap/cosmetics/food and aren't too pricey. The stores themselves aren't vegan, but they do carry all those products. Anyway...

"Most omnivores probably don't think too much about food beyond financial and health implications" - this. This is so important because it shows again how terribly misguided and ignorant folks (like we almost all were at one time) are. It is being proven over and over how unhealthy consuming 'animals' and products stolen from them is and yet people are so entrenched in their beliefs about health *requiring* consumption of said products. One of my brothers' friends from High School raised their kid vegan from birth and last I heard he's almost never even had a cold. He's an extremely healthy kid. But none of my family besides me are vegan, partly because of their belief that animal products are necessary for health.

This whole post was great and I could go on and on, but I won't. You summed it up perfectly and gave me something to think about. (I'm still floored that people were so rude and completely out of line to approach a stranger to scold them about not shaving...although I'm sure you had to pick your battles, I hope you told them where to go!). :)

have gone vegan said in reply to krissa...

Well, you can imagine too that I was a lot younger then and not half as comfortable in my skin as I am now, and I didn't really enjoy being the center of attention, so I'm surprised I lasted as long as I did! I don't even really remember how I responded to people's enquiries, although I'm willing to bet I'd be a lot more assertive now.

Plus, I have to admit that the hair on my legs would put a lot of men's legs to shame, snort. Even hairdressers are always surprised at how thick and fast the hair on my head grows, so it's not like it was barely visible. It was really in their face, and I even got flack from family members, so it wasn't just strangers who were uncomfortable.

Yep, look at all our television commercials even. How many of the food ones are about fruits and vegetables? I see the occasional one advertising produce grown in Ontario, but all the rest are dairy, meat and fast food products, so we almost can't blame folk for believing those are the ones they should be eating.

I try not to be too in-their-face about it these days, and usually wear pants. In the summer I'll shave a few times if I want to wear shorts (but man, what a lot of work!), and always look forward to Fall again. I DO have bigger battles these days, but still think the relationships (intersections I guess) between different traditions or oppressions quite interesting.

In short, what I find fascinating about masculinity and femininity is that basic maleness pretty much qualifies a guy to be considered masculine, but basic femaleness doesn't do the same trick. But I think that's because maleness is considered the norm, so what women essentially end up having to do is prove that they're NOT male or masculine. And that, like my shaving, is a hell of a lot of work. Plus, you can't just do it once. No, you have to do it over and over and you're never done. Unless you opt out. ;)

Tom said...

There are men out there (I am one) who find the absence or presence of body hair absolutely unimportant to the love and connection felt with a female friend, partner, or family member. And I am embarrassed that it's even ever made to be an issue, and like Krissa, I'm angry that anyone gave themselves the right to comment on your choice. Screw 'em.

To this discussion I would also add (I guess it fits in the category of social pressure and commodification) the awful, relentless stream of advertisements telling women (and even, nowadays, men) that there's something wrong with some part of their body that will be fixed with a product for sale, available for sale at your local drugstore or shopping mall. Pills, creams, potions, shampoos, razors, all endlessly hawked by plastic-looking models with fake smiles. As you wrote, ARTIFICIAL CONSTRAINTS. I'm not talking about products that help us maintain basic hygiene, of course, although there are many natural alternatives to the plastic one-use packaging stuff we're told we need to be healthy or attractive to others.

have gone vegan said in reply to Tom...

Hey Tom, glad you're one of the good guys. ;)

I kind of wonder too if I had been a bit more confident in my younger years and exuded more of a I'll-do-what-I-like-and-screw-you aura that perhaps fewer people would have approached me. Hmmm, might make for an interesting experiment this summer, snort.

You're right about all the crap out there and the never-ending barrage of advertising telling us how to improve ourselves. Men, unfortunately, have been targeted too over the last number of years (don't fall for it dudes!), but what really bothers me is how kids are subjected to it as well. I mean, young girls under ten thinking they need to diet? Teenagers getting nose jobs and breast implants? So sad. But it all boils down to money it seems. What a strange world we live in, sigh.

Bea Elliott said...

I was in my early 20's when I first began neglecting my "duties" of conforming to the feminine "norm". Make up just never felt right... Always like a sweaty mask. I wore it less and less and liked the "natural me" more and more... I also became *prematurely* gray well before my 30's. Never took to the bottle though, even against the advice of friends who said it would make me look so much younger. Fiddle-sticks! They are my gray hairs and I earned every one of them!

As to women always having to try harder for approval - Always having to pay-her-way via the script of social demands... We see this exploitation and imbalance in the livestock industries too don't we? As women's beauty is a commodity - Aren't females judged by their scoring condition and their fertility? Makes me shudder to connect the dots - But there they are!

If I could ever give advice to a younger woman... A younger me - I'd tell them to throw out the curling irons and eyebrow pluckers! Cast out the lifters, enhancers, reducers and miracle creams... Life's far too short to waste on someone else's critical eye. We know it's a rigged game anyway... They keep it that way so that authentic female confidence and presence is never achieved. We're distracted from ideas because of being pre-occupied with the way we look! And we'll always know our place because it's just where others tell us that it is. The wise among us know it isn't in shaved legs or polished nails. And for nonhuman females it isn't in how fast they can deliver the next batch of babies... Being female isn't part of a "value-chain"...

Thanks HGV - These issues certainly do merge. And they have equal consequence when we ignore that they do. Feminists would do well to align themselves with vegans as they are part of the same cause against a sucky society!

have gone vegan said in reply to Bea Elliott...

Excellent points (or perhaps I should say dots, ha ha), Bea. Commodification is the name of the game indeed, and is getting stronger I would say as corporations look to expand their reach globally rather than just nationally. Boy do they have voracious appetites!

Great advice for the younger ones among us, and older too. I started going gray in my late 30s but it's just not going fast enough for me. My mom's hair is a beautiful silver white, and I can't wait for my hair to grow into that shade. And no, dying your hair to look younger has just the opposite effect in my opinion -- it's your energy and vitality (going vegan can help with that!) that make you act and look young. Not that that is important per se, but for those who place value on that, something to consider.

Ah, if enough people can connect enough of the dots, our world really would be far less dotty methinks. ;)

Bea Elliott said...

Oh... And the thing about strangers being offended by anything you do on your body??? Let them remain "strange" in the realm of progress and rationality. Old, fossilized, sticks stuck in primordial goo!

have gone vegan said in reply to Bea Elliott...

Ha! Let them remain "strange" -- love that!

Sunday, April 6, 2014

why aren't more Christians vegan?

 Christian vegan bumper sticker

A good question indeed and the title of New Vegan Age's essay challenging Christians to consider going vegan. Now, we actually discussed this piece while it was being written, and there were a few things I would have liked to see in it which do not appear, and a couple of things that I actually disagree with. So, closer to Easter, I'll be giving you my own take on why more Christians aren't vegan, but please do read Tom's essay here

In the meantime, I'm also working on: an expansion of a discussion I had with veganelder about finding a new category for animals in the property vs. person debate (for those of you who don't read the comments, tsk tsk -- you know who you are -- that's where some of the interesting stuff really happens), a resurrection of sorts (eek, bad Easter joke) of the paradox of being vegan series, white privilege, human privilege, and all sorts of privilege (also originating from a comment), the deceptively titled "one thing you can do to help veganism", and the most striking sentence I read last year.

Whew! I'm gonna be busy, but luckily I have much less time on my hands these days, which oddly enough has resulted in my being that much more focused. So, stay tuned!

Comments

Krissa said...

Ugh, this is the 4th re-write about the Christianity part. I'm going to just say that I think it comes down to ignorance regardless of how sincere someone is in their beliefs or not. Apathy and ignorance. And by ignorance I don't mean stupidity, I mean simply ignorant - often by choice. This can hold true for anyone of any religion and I'll leave it at that.

I'm not much help in the property vs. person debate. I understand it logically and I realize that the vast majority of humans don't share most of us who are vegan's views and feelings. But personally, I consider every fellow living creature a friend and an equal, just different. As for 'my' two cats, they are my family first and I am their guardian (because obviously they don't get a say in where we live, what they eat, etc.) and I do my very best for them. I realize that in this world, other animals are not our 'equals' because of the place we've made them occupy in this world, but for me personally, they are my friends. "Animals" like birds and squirrels who live in the city that I call home, when I pass through THEIR home, I am respectful of that and treat it as such. If I ever come up with a thought that is useful for the majority of the population in the property vs. person debate, I will share it.

So glad you're getting to post more often! :)

have gone vegan said in reply to Krissa...

Ha, I'm going to go backwards in my reply here.

First, thanks for the vote of confidence, although you may want to reserve judgment until you read said posts, snort.

I'm sure your thoughts will be very useful when I post the property vs. persons category idea, and I'm looking forward to it.

I like your attitude towards birds and squirrels and their homes. Because we often forget that we're intruding onto THEIR space with our never-ending development, and dangerous glass buildings (the numbers of birds killed by flying into office windows is staggering), and then we're surprised by the appearance of deer, coyotes, etc., and call them a nuisance?

Sorry for having to do rewrites. Christianity can do that to you, snort. Sorry, Tom, if you're reading this, cuz you know I'm kidding, right? Ignorance might be true for some, but I think it's more than that, or maybe not quite that, for most, but will try to explain/expand in future post. :)

krissa said in reply to have gone vegan...

Also in case your friend Tom is reading, I did try to post a comment to thank him for that essay and that I hope it will make many people sincerely consider and pray on it because I think if they do it will start some folks on the path to becoming vegan. It was well-written and interesting.

Your point about the glass buildings brings back a memory from before I was even vegan. Nick and I were walking to the store and had to pass by a very big all glass front building that was on our block and a bird had smacked into it and was doing very badly and on a busy sidewalk. I didn't believe I could save him, but wanted to try. I didn't want to traumatize him too much further so I stood on the sidewalk and protected and shaded him and Nick ran back and got a box and put a soft cloth and some grass and sticks in it. We carried him so carefully in the box, but about half way down the block when I checked on him, he had died. I was crying so hard on the street and we took him back and put him way under a bush where I hoped his little body wouldn't get disturbed. Sorry for the sad story, but it's something that many people just don't "get" and walk right past. You should see how long it takes me to go anywhere when it rains because I have to move all the snails and worms off the sidewalks and bike paths. Ha. But I simply just can't walk past. Anyway, sorry for rambling in the comments and for a sad story, but it's another part of being vegan that is so important....to figure out how to lessen our impact in ways that are normally overlooked.

I consider myself to have been ignorant in the past of the suffering. And as you know, I was raised in a strict Christian household. I didn't word that very well in the first comment, I think. I mean ignorance to the suffering and also, sadly, apathy to the suffering.

Ok, sorry for the long-winded 2nd comment!!!

have gone vegan said in reply to krissa...

Aw, poor birdie. But at least you provided them with a bit of dignity and a more respectful resting place. Yes, I can see you moving snails and worms! :)

Ignorance (as in just not knowing), is more excusable as there's so much that keeps people in the dark. Apathy, bothers me a lot more. It's kind of a double sin if you know what I mean.

Tom said...

Thank you AGAIN for helping to develop and seriously improve this essay! Like Krissa, I'm glad you're getting to post more often these days—and I'm looking forward to reading your own take on this issue soon. Oh, and omissions from the final version did not necessarily indicate disagreement :-]

have gone vegan said in reply to Tom...

No problem, I enjoyed doing it!

I think my own take will likely require a fair bit of editing, so I guess I had better get going. And if it ends up being a bit harsh, maybe I'll warn you beforehand. Yeah, some of the stuff we both agreed on did not appear, but I just want to make sure it shows up somewhere. Looking forward in advance to any agreement, disagreement or indifference you may have to offer. ;)

Bea Elliott said...

That is a very good question and of course I only have some hunches as to why more Christians and other religious sects aren't vegan... My guess is that there's much in religious scripture and ancient texts that actually "permit" man's use of "everything" and every creature. There's a hierarchical model that's been used to justify every type of domination... The patriarchy from whence "man" is over all is deeply rooted in a deity who has assigned us each with "his" purpose. And when anything doesn't make much sense, most dismiss it with "We cannot know or question God's ways". So if nonhumans must suffer to become the meat that is "allowed" to us... Well, who are we to question? And then too there's always the closing remark to me when I challenge why nonhumans aren't treated kindly (by Christians). I'm told flat out "They don't have a soul". And then I can't go any further without challenging their faith. It's a tough topic indeed.

I would love it if more people were less religious and more spiritual. I don't know that Ahimsa could ever be molded into or mistaken as dominion. This topic gives a whole new meaning to the Easter ham and likewise to what is halal. :'(

have gone vegan said in reply to Bea Elliott...

Good question and tough topic indeed. But you've provided quite a few clues as to what my take will look like. Looks like we're in sync here! :)